Very nice Volume 1 report. Nice done. Looks really good.

I was surprised by how few women participated in the survey. (I am a woman.) Also you do not share any statistics on the ages of the participants. I suspect I am in the minority all the way around, being a woman and 69 years old.

Really, really interesting. Thank you.

I am saddened by seeing that 29% still participate in the Church.

Also, I am in the excommunicated category but that is misleading. I was excommunicated in the 70s when a person wanting to resign his/her membership could not do that. Rather the Church excommunicated the person. My excommunication is unrelated to my sexual orientation.

I am interested to know if under the category of “Effectiveness of Various Therapeutic Approaches to SSA” you tested for religion of therapist. I was happy to see that under the acceptance question and open and supportive question that there was mostly a positive reporting of effectiveness. That is promising! Hope LDS therapists are representing this finding more often than not.

Also interesting to see the Feelings Regarding LDS Church and was surprised that anger was the lowest. Sounds like people are more sad than angry.

Keep ‘em coming! This is fantastic information to have as an LDS therapist.

I like John (Aug 14th Comment) am active LDS and not gay, but I have quite a few gay friends, relatives, and contacts in my life. I actually was sent to this site by someone I’ve been having a religious discussion with. I grew up in a “part member family” and would like to think I’m fairly open minded, but I am also strictly religious when it comes to LDS doctrine and practices (we go to the temple weekly, don’t have cable TV., generally won’t watch a movie unless it’s PG or G, etc… yes very extreme). I make a good Pharisee and am working on the charity part.

I too have personal experience with church courts on sexual matters and it is not fun, but repentance never is (I’m not one who would ever lie to a bishop either). I do not think I would have such a personal knowledge of the atonement and the Savior’s love for me if it weren’t for the repentance process and some of the bishop’s I’ve had.

I appreciated John’s comments and your response. I am sorry to hear that you felt vilified by church members for being gay. I agree that people do need to be less judgmental and more loving (especially those with the gospel), but I disagree with one of your responses to John. You said that your relationships are not all about sex and that you don’t necessarily get excommunicated for fornication, but you do for being gay. The part I disagree with is that I believe you can be gay in the church; you just can’t have sex (gay or straight) outside of marriage. You could even call yourself gay, but if you never have a sexual relationship, you would not be excommunicated. You can be excommunicated for fornication (I know someone who has), but it depends on the circumstances, how repentant you are, if you’ve been through the temple, etc.

I have seen how a relationship like this could work. I know two women who are roommates and have been for 10+ years. One might assume they were lesbians because they basically are partners, without the sex. (They would be appalled if you said that to them). They both work at the temple on the same shift. I really don’t think they’ll ever get married unless polygamy was legalized or they married Siamese twins because I don’t think they could bear to part with one another. They have the love and companionship with each other, but can also live active lives in the LDS Church. They also have very active roles in their nieces and nephews lives which I believe fulfills their nurturing desires.

I know how hard celibacy is. This is probably way more information than you want to know, but I think masturbation is relevant to this discussion. Not doing it is part of being chaste. Sexual desires are good and from God when they are bridled and used properly within the bonds of marriage. My husband and I have been separated for at least half of our marriage because of the military. I had struggled with masturbation from puberty until a couple years ago (including my married life when we were apart). It was one of those issues that made me feel like I was always in the bishop’s office (I’m thinking not many women confess it because of the response I would get). The thing that solved the issue for me was my husband deploying for 15 months and me being called as YW president early into the deployment. I think that’s the main reason the Lord had for me being called to that position because I was released soon after he returned. It was really a stretch for me because I was a new mother and on my own. I felt like I needed the Spirit and couldn’t do anything to harm my communication with the Spirit. I would never smoke because I would never buy cigarettes and that’s how masturbation has become for me… it’s just somewhere I won’t go. I know it’s possible to “overcome the natural man” being chaste and obedient even when our physical desires seem so powerful.

As far as children not becoming gay because of seeing others who are gay, I agree, but I think it comes down to trying to halt the downward moral shift in our society (and it needs to occur on all levels not just against gay marriage… e.g. getting pornography out of kids hands on the internet. See cp80.org). I don’t have issue with “civil or domestic partnerships” or other laws that give rights to gay couples… Just don’t call it marriage. I have a cousin who is experimenting with being bi-sexual. I really don’t think she would be experimenting if it weren’t a socially acceptable thing to be doing.

I appreciate your comment about the church being able to have its own rules and standards. That is what I worry about: That the “Gay Pride Parade” people (outspoken extremists) want more rights that I have. I think it’s crazy that no one can discriminate against anything except religious beliefs. (It seems the people with faith-based beliefs are often vilified by the media and the vocal minority… I’m worried about how far that will go).

Wow, that’s more than I intended to write. God bless.

E

My son has not been excommunicated (only because he quit going to church), and up until Prop 8, was always proud to have been raised with the values he learned by being raised in the church (gosh he even played Joseph Smith in Temple Pageant in 1998). Now he said he might send a letter of resignation (of course there would be the court, but I doubt that he’d bother to go, unless he decided to speak his mind). And,personally, I see no reason he should remain a member of church that doesn’t want “his kind” contaminating their congregation. How wonderful that your mother made the suggestion that the two of you should leave that Sunday School class.

Anyway, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Sheryl

I was married to my partner of 25 years June 20, 2008, in Sacramento, California. I didn’t think it would make much difference in my life to be married, but it has! As a 54-year-old man raised in the Mormon faith, marriage and monogamy have been almost a biological part of my being, and it was an incredible experience for my spouse and me to be publicly recognized as a couple.

I felt the same joy you did, Clark, when the decision to overturn the ban on gay marriage was rendered–it was true emancipation. When Proposition 8 reared its hideous and hateful head, I was devastated. I prayed each day that the proposition would not pass. Well, it did, due in no small part to the efforts of religious organizations, including our own faith, going so far as to call from the state of Utah to influence California citizens. It is unconscionable what measures people take to wield influence in affairs of state (not even their OWN state) for religious reasons. Our Savior must weep in grief, pain, and shame at what civilization chooses to do in his name.

Although it doesn’t affect in any way the bond between my spouse and me, it has been made patently clear that over half of my fellow citizens in the state of California do not accept me in full fellowship in the human race–and make no mistake, this is a human rights issue. I fear for the next time human rights will be taken away. Who will be affected and to what damage?

Thank you, Clark, for being at the forefront of the effort to save the lives of young Mormons who are going through the torture that we endured. Please let me know what I can do to serve our brothers and sisters who deserve everyone’s love, acceptance (not tolerance), and support. Would Jesus do any less than this?

I send this in the spirit of love, good intent, and faith in the teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I am sorry about your harships that you had to endure at BYU. Thank you for thanking me for not being quiet. For too many years, I was. I can’t do it any more and it feels so good to tell people what has happened in my life.

I wish you the best of happiness.

Carolyn

What a wonderful response! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It is amazing to think that God would want people to not have love.

I used to believe it, but I don’t any more. I agree with you that change is difficult for many. Your point about how the church started was very effective.

Thank you so much for your thoughts and feelings.

Carolyn

I understand the hate and bitterness. It is difficult to understand how we could lose the church when we loved it so much.

My Mom always says, that you cannot hate something or someone so much unless you loved them so much in the first place.”

My heart goes out to you and I want you to know that I admire your strength.

Carolyn

Thank you for sharing your feelings. I appreciate what you are saying and am glad that you looked at this site. Thank you for even trying to understand.

Best Regards,
Carolyn

I am really sorry that you had such a rough time with so many members of the LDS church. I am LDS, and I know that the LDS church does not condone such behavior.

That being said, I agree with John’s comments. I would also say that it is my understanding that fornication results in disfellowship and excommunication whether it is committed with someone of the same sex or of the opposite sex if those involved refuse to repent and end their relationship.

Also, I do realize that being gay/lesbian is not simply about sex. I don’t think it is any more likely to be solely about sex than a heterosexual relationship is. Therefore, in making these comments, I hope you realize that I am not accusing you or anyone in such relationships of being shallow in this regard.

Thank you for your clear and honest words.

I just want to say in defense of the Church, and having been a member for 31years, I have never ever been in any meeting where people or gays are discussed in a derogatory manner at church.

I am sure that there are times in church where it has happened, but I have never heard it or seen it personally, and I don’t want people who watch these videos to think that it is normal for members of the church to discuss or speak unkindly of people in our meetings.

I think the reason you missed church so much was because of the good that members of the church do for each other and others in the community. I just wanted to clarify that yes, there are those that probably voice unkindness, but is certainly not the norm.

Thank you for sharing your story and your feelings.

Thank you for sharing your heart and your feelings. It takes a great deal of courage and love to do so. I am a gay man who made it through a mission and many callings until finally I came out and struggled to find meaning in what God has called me to be. Your messages and sharing have touched my heart today, and have caused me to want, just like you, to be more like Jesus, and have an unconditional love for my fellow man. Thank you for affirming that there is no divide between us, but instead love that binds us.

Thanks for being brave and sharing your message.

I am a little confused about what’s going on today. You said that circumstances helped form your gender orientation, yet many others say they were born the way they are. I was wondering if you feel that society is encouraging people with homosexual tendencies to be that way permanently.

Thanks for your insight.

Dan

Some of the people in the church are in effect asking gay/lesbians to give up love, through no fault of their own. That is a life destroying request.

Without love, how could the church exist in the first place?
And as Carolyn quite rightly pointed out, this is definitely not all about sex,which is a way of expressing love. In my marriage to my husband – sex is a tiny part of it, but I don’t know what I would do if someone banned me from expressing my love to him in any kind of way. I’d be heart-broken and would forever feel incomplete.

I’m confused as to why anybody would think that God would say “No – you aren’t allowed to show your love to anyone.” I don’t think that he thinks that, I really don’t. Why would that make sense? And I would be very interested to hear a different response other than “just show obedience, have faith and don’t question authority.” It’s ok to question things that don’t sit right with you.
Again- the church wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for an astute young man who needed to ask questions, and went against the grain. Blind faith is a very dangerous dangerous thing and can ultimately lead to pain and sorrow.

I stopped going to church about 10 years ago, for reasons that are not relevant to this but I still believe it is built on strong foundations and is a beautiful message which if followed the way it was written, is a great way to lead your life.

But I also believe really strongly that each person, no matter what they believe, what they do, should be accepted and not judged for who they are – not by us anyway! If they are not hurting anyone else with their actions then you don’t need to get involved. Lots of people in the church are not so good at this, and I am sorry to say that is what lets it down for me. It makes me so sad to hear Carolyn’s story and hear that people who are privileged to have been taught the difference between right and wrong and nurtured in the church environment, could hurt her and others in her situation.

BUT I also think that in time… the acceptance will come. People are frightened of change, and will dig their heels in, but I hope there will be a time that attitudes within the church will begin to change. The church is meant to – and does inspire and help people build their lives up, not tear them apart.

Thank you for the thought provoking story Carolyn, and I wish you all the luck and LOVE that you deserve.

Thank you for speaking and helping me understand a little better.

I am a 36 year old woman who was raised in a 5th generation LDS active family. I served a mission in Montreal from ’93 to ’95. I graduated with BS and MS degrees in Zoology from BYU. I went to Portland to earn a PhD and ended up coming to terms with being a lesbian. I ended up leaving church, my family, and graduate school between 2002 and 2004.

I am now in a physical therapy graduate program and feel that my life is back on track, but I spent several years in a tailspin socially, emotionally, and financially.

It’s wonderful that you do not feel bitterness or resentment toward the church. I feel a massive and endless bitterness. It is my hope that I can free myself from these feelings, but every time I see something or hear something about this issue I get so angry for the lost years and the needless self hatred. How did you escape the bitterness?

I was also excommunicated by the men in my bishopric. I have never felt so humilited or ignored. How quickly things change. I used to be asked to serve in callings and now I’m not allowed to even pray? That’s so demoralizing and sad. I don’t think people in the church really care at all. All they want is to get their family to heaven safely. Oh well if you can’t make it on your own.

I no longer can bring myself to believe in any kind of god after believing that god could take this away from me and he really could not. I now realize I could have been praying to a mosquito or a gallon of milk all those years.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Michelle

Carolyn

The tragedy of Mormon authoritarianism is that the people who care most about the Church and the gospel are most likely to get hurt by it.

Although I had a strong testimony, I always realized that the Church is a human institution and focused on the gospel. It is really about being a good neighbor and you don’t need an organization to be a good neighbor.

I hope that you can find some new meaning in your life. I am glad that you are living a fulfilled life with your partner.

It was set up as a “separate but equal system.” There is NO SUCH THING. Even the US supreme court found this idea is much more fantasy than reality.

One prominent example is that I could not get life insurance on my partner until we were married. Even though my employer provided domestic partner benefits. Several of those benefits were not available to a “domestic partner” if the company providing the benefit was out of state. His employer, although very gay-friendly locally, contracted all benefits through an out of state company that also had no domestic partnership laws so they couldn’t offer “domestic partner” benefits at all. We faxed our marriage certificate to them, and presto, the whole family was covered under his employer’s benefits as well. This will save our family about $1000/month, not chump change, at least for us.

I could go on with other examples, but the point is made. I suspect we will continue to find even more examples.

—————

That said, I’m so heartened to see that not all Mormons are blindly following an intolerant leader. I have to say that from what I knew, I just assumed all would … which was bigoted of me. So thank you, and my apologies for my own intolerance.

That said, I get the impression that you all will have a tough road ahead convincing fellow members of your church. I wish you all the best, and thank you all from the bottom of my heart!

I would love to re-connect with you. What a wonderful story and you warmed my heart. You can email me at Dunga1969@aol.com.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Carolyn

Thank you for sharing your story in the video vignettes. It takes a brave person to share her life so openly. I’m sorry you had to experience the loss of friendships upon being excommunicated. I cannot imagine abandoning any friend unless they asked me personally to get lost, but I can imagine the loss you must have felt from these individuals you called friends.

I find it increasingly difficult to desire being at church because we as a church have moved away as a whole from love to judgement. Perhaps most religions have. I find myself closer to Father and the Spirit when I am alone in the woods hiking.

God bless you and may you always have peace.

Namaste,
Deborah

Thanks for sharing your story. Your gifts are missed by the church and your influence profound. Wish you were still serving in capacities within the church and its educational system. You changed lives, including mine.

Go with me back to 1989.
You were my sign language instructor and I loved you and your love for life, fun, and learning. I was with you during those first “SIlent Weekend” retreats and you instilled in me a love of ASL and a desire to understand all people and respect the uniqueness of each individual. I have since pursued a career in Deaf Education and am grateful for your influence.

It seems too that we shared other “Silences” as well. You did set off my “gaydar” back then – smile! I am sure we were both still trying to figure ourselves out but spirits recognize spirits. Anyway, I just married my partner of eleven years and although I am happier than I have ever been, I share the sadness and complications that come with the loss of the church. May we both continue to be blessed with understanding and peace.

I would love to reconnect with you. Our paths were meant to cross at the ASLTA conference in Vegas — I saw your name as a presenter and was so excited to see you but you had to cancel and were not there. Now I go in search of like minded Californians and Mormons against prop. 8 and here you are. My gaydar was right! God is good and his workings crazy and mysterious — I am smiling ear to ear.

Love your courage and spirit — thanks for everything!

Cami

Your words are wonderful! I agree with you that sometimes we rely on others or the church to be our spiritual source. I love what you wrote that we work our own salvation out with the Lord.

I wish that I could have felt that and known that before I was excommunicated. I am thankful that you feel that way and can share that with others. Thank you for sharing your heart felt feelings also.

You are right that life is amazing! We certainly can love and learn from each other. Thank you for helping me to learn something new today.

Carolyn

And I would also like to add that I love that this website asks about positive Church experiences. I think it is important to understand that the Church does indeed do a lot of good and is a great organization for many.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts. It is refreshing to know that even though we do not agree regarding each other’s actions that we can like each other.

Carolyn

I sure do wish that I could have come to your party. I don’t live near you or I WOULD have been there. Keep up the great work!!!!

Carolyn

How great that you can express your feelings regarding this matter. I think it is wonderful.

We do get blessings by obeying the Lord. My life is full of blessings and I thank God for them everyday.

Interesting that you compare fornication with being gay/lesbian. You can fornicate and not be excommunicated. So, I think there is some inequality. Being gay/lesbian is not about sex.

I wish people could undertsand that and not equate a loving and supportive relationship to sex. I imagine that sex is not the biggest part of your marriage. Not comfortable to talk about is it? Yet, that is all people talk about when referring to gay and lesbian people.

I hope that people like you and those who care enough to listen can understand the difference.

Carolyn

Video here:

http://chinoblanco.blogspot.com/2008/08/huckabee-romney-responsible-for.html

Welcome to the ProtectMarriage.com coalition.

I wish that more rank and file members of the LDS (Mormon) church would realize: the anti-gay coalition they’ve joined in California is one that includes folks who – given the chance – would vote their church out of existence.

Folks like Mike Huckabee and his Evangelical buddies.

Thanks so much for your comments. I am very glad that you shared your feelings with me. The sad stories about our gay brothers and sisters is a difficult one.

I am so glad that your relative could talk to you. What a wonderful gift you have given them. Thanks for the songs and I will listen to them for sure.

Carolyn

I support you in your choice to be honest about who you are and be courageous in confronting the belief system you hold dear where it does not seem right to you. I try to do that as well by supporting the cause of equal rights for everyone in America (including the Mormon church), whether they are gay, straight, bisexual, trans-gender, Jewish, Atheist, Mormon, Muslim, male, female, young, old, poor, rich, black, white, yellow, brown, etc.

Just because someone is different in what gender they love, whether they love someone of a different race, whether they love a religion that is different than ours, that doesn’t mean their love isn’t valid and beautiful. All such love should should be supported, protected, nurtured and celebrated. Not threatened, prevented, and misunderstood just because someone feels threatened by it.

That is the way Christ would want it. That is the way congregations should be towards other members no matter what choices they make. On the same hand, those who are gay, should also understand that although we love and respect our fellow gay brothers and sisters, we should be respected if we don’t agree with their choices as well.

I was a teenage convert and was active in the LDS for 30 years before coming out, because i grew up in a rural area where no one seemed to know about homosexuality, and i was also in a church that did not know anything good about gays, so it is no surprize that i did not know i was gay until it became too obvious to ignore.

During all those years i avoided dating girls and didnt try to think of sex at all in any way and tried to find my way in religion, but in the end the religion thing went bad because they didnt like who we are, so i avoided telling anyone at church until i personally studied my own way and came to my own conclusions, fully accepting myself.

A few years later something came up in church and inspired me that now was the time to tell leaders from my place of strength and knowledge, just stating the fact and not allowing them to “help,” telling them there would be no counseling… they took away callings and it felt bad at first, then I realized it was like a vacation and not a bad thing, i stopped supporting any church financial needs and began attending a gay-positive religion, where gays were accepted as whole and normal… later, as i learned of LDS crusades against gays, I formally resigned from the LDS and dont feel I would ever return to a cultic religion of any kind… I spent 12 years with the gay church and gave it up, along with all organized religions a few years ago. The Golden Rule is my path now.

The LDS anti-gay teachings and political crusades show that my decisions to leave the LDS were right for me and led to a great path of self discovery that no organized religion could have given me. I have studied several renditions of critical observations about Joseph Smith and Mormonism, along with many other isms, and personally see no value in those religions at this time… when i was leaving the LDS, a member asked if I didnt believe in Joseph Smith any more… I said just as much as in the other religious leaders, the prophets of other churches… to me they were all wrong together and setting themselves up to be followed by us.

I look forward in the years to come when all faiths come to accept gays, not bwecause they are forced to, but because they become enlightened to do so, as in the Golden Rule…

When people work to restrict other’s rights, then their own may become restricted in return… when LDS work against gays, the LDS are seeking the same discrimination from others… what goes around comes around… the Karma will come home to roost… and Zion will never be built until the LDS learn that lesson and stop it. All people should be free to live as they wish, single or partnered, married or unmarried…

Loren Fay
New York

That is not a stupid question at all. I was afraid that I would never feel the spirit, however I have learned that I can feel the spirit. I am also able to do good things and think of others better than I have before. Sometimes I think it is becuase I’m doing it from my heart rather than what “I am supposed to do”. I wish you peace in your journey, as I know it is a hard one. Please write again if you have any other questions.

Carolyn

I appreciate you sharing your story. That has to be hard to share. I also can’t imagine your not being able to interpret for deaf members in Missouri. If I were one of those members I would be mad that they wouldn’t allow a willing and capable interpreter to interpret. I have done some interpreting in church, though I am not certified, and it has always been a very helpful service. Denying someone the understanding of their church meetings seems strange.

I am a happily-married heterosexual woman. Many people think I would be the last person to think differently about homosexuality than most of the Church or even to care. But I do. I have a relative who never could share with her parents or some of her siblings that she was lesbian, and it breaks my heart. I don’t know if she knows that I know she’s lesbian, and because she knows I’m Mormon I don’t know if she’d trust to tell me. (and I don’t want to bring it up- “by the way I know you’re a lesbian and it doesn’t bother me” just sounds weird to say. I did let her know that she and her partner are welcome to visit any time) But my mom told me and it doesn’t affect my love or feelings for her at all. There was one brother who she didn’t tell because she was afraid that he wouldn’t let her see his children. (My parents were a little more forward-thinking, so they got told, and even chose this relative and her partner to be the ones to raise us should anything happen to them [which it never did]) It makes me angry when people speak so unkindly about homosexuals. Next time I think I will speak up instead of just thinking it.

I will not speak against church policies about homosexuality, but I will say I don’t think there’s any reason that every LDS person needs to oppose legal gay marriage. I don’t feel that gay marriage cheapens my marriage at all,and I don’t see how it could. (if anything, Hollywood’s version of marriage cheapens my marriage)

You may or may not know these songs by Fred Small, but I wanted to pass along the lyrics:

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/small-fred-annie-lyrics.html
http://www.lyricsdownload.com/small-fred-scott-and-jamie-lyrics.html

The songs are even cooler, but sometimes hard to find.

I’m so sorry that Curtis didn’t find the support that he needed. I know there are many people in the church who struggle to feel the love of the Savior in their lives. It is truly tragic. However, I have witnessed an increasing awareness of gender issues in the church, accompanied by increased understanding and compassion on the part of church members and leaders. I have friends and family members who’ve grown up with issues about their gender or sexuality. Some have been able to connect to the Savior and His atonement; some have not. The things you have shared have given me a greater desire to provide the kind of love and friendship (a “safe place”)for all of them so that, no matter what their choices are, I can be a catalyst for the Lord’s love to be felt in their lives.

Another point that I would like to bring up is that I have met several people throughout my life that for some reason or another have never been able to marry (although all have wanted to). For these same members, they have been left with similar options as homosexual latter-day saints. They, too, probably won’t (and some who have passed away-haven’t) find/found the intimacy of love. They will never have the closeness to another person. Undoubtedly they will still have sexual desires and are asked by the doctrines of the Church not to act on them outside of marriage.

Basically my points in this comment are that 1) homosexuals are obviously not “bad’ people, and 2) there are MANY different struggles that people face which are similar in several aspects to what homosexual latter-day saints (and who succeed).

Not easy, but worth it.

The Irvine PR company that runs the “Yes on 8” media campaign is holding an Open House on:

Thursday, August 14th, 2008
5:30 p.m – 8:30 p.m.

2020 Main Street
Irvine, CA 92614

All those opposed to Prop 8 are invited to attend and/or rally at 2020 Main on August 14th.

Details here:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6364

Or here:

http://www.calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6587

And here:

http://chinoblanco.blogspot.com/

Cheers,

Chino